Blogging Umineko Chiru DAWN – 36 – In which it does [Not] always Follow

“Have no fear. No matter how difficult the crime, I will solve it. That’s a detective’s job.”

Most noble, I know. I know! Mind you, that is followed later by Erika’s facial distortion and brutally sending murder doll Dlanor to destroy a feeble truth. You’d think that normally two Beatrice would equal twice the trolling, huh? However, most unfortunately that isn’t the case. We have chick Beatrice and Elder Beatrice and no signs of Beatroll. That’s simply too frustrating. Me? I’m cornered about the dilemma between choosing simply <good> or very <good> Both sounds great but very has that additional part. See? What to do?

Y’know, it’s really a bad habit of yours to run away from arguments you can’t handle, ~ Battler?

chopsticks!

“The annoying guest”

That’s kinda mean, ain’t it? Hold and behold. Erika once again arrives to Rokkenjima  on the day of the family conference. All of this is similar to 5th Game in which the Ushiromiya take her in and allow her to stay until the typhoon passes.  While in the parlor Erika as usual brags about her immense knowledge on the mystery genre which surprises even Nanjo himself, whose character has moved from being Kinzo’s chess partner to mystery avid reader. Her bragging goes as far as claiming that the real “mystery genre” died half a century ago and that all tricks nowadays are nothing recycled tricks from past works. Eh, that almost sounds like a great deal anime is nowadays.

GEORGE tries to stir the conversation in another direct (I see they’re already giving him lines) making Maria’s picture book the point of attention. Not the best move. Erika once again has the opportunity to show off her amazing deduction skills with  it. Clearly this low level challenge is nothing to her and she answers all the questions but her attitude pisses off everyone at the parlor.

They specially center on a problem about cheese and the question is on what’s the less numbers of cuts it can be cut using a knife. Everyone seems to get the answer right away minus Battler who apparently can’t handle this simple problem. After giving him plenty of hints, time, and telling him how he’s a moron, Battler comes forward with his answer claiming that it’s “one”.  Everyone dumbfounded but Erika who knows that that’s ALSO the correct answer besides “three” and is more surprised that there was someone besides her who come up with the same answer. On meta world, AA are still spying on this fragment and Ange is also confused how this was even possible. HOW FOOLISH, CHILD OF MAN.

Battler uses a napkin to show Jessica how it was possible to do it by folding it in parts and cutting from the very top to get the parts needed. As a result that some info was mentioned and other wasn’t, Battler’s idea was plausible. The answer is quite simple, there was a clear misinterpretation of the problem. Even though the problem clearly provided restrictions to the problem such as the straight cuts, there was a clear and most crucial piece evidence provided by the book that was ignored – the definite shape of the cheese provided by the book, which Maria forgot to show leading to this “hole” in the problem. Yes, they all were stiff-headed people who could ONLY think “outside the box” like Krauss mentions (though I don’t think he had the right to) but they couldn’t think BEYOND THAT. As mentioned, Erika’s and Battler’s reasoning was on a different level than theirs.

You sure did get the answer before they told it, right? It wasn’t that hard using simple assumptions.

They go to the next problem involving putting “X” number of coins in 3 cups and how it’ll work out if you have fewer coins than normally required. Of course, this is nothing but another clique problem to Erika but stays quiet because everyone is already  getting mad at her. The conversation is later changed by George again (sure is getting his screentime) about food manners and utensils meaning CHOPSTICKS! which unlike forks aren’t totally barbaric. All of this drastically improves Erika’s mood even reaching pure fascination mode. Poking and cutting.. Well, when you phrase it like that..

The strong wind blowing outside, the darkness, how terrified Battler (they never mentioned his name actually) was excellent in DAWN.  Battler locked in a perfect closed room is trying to desperately find a way out. First thinking of the closet as a coffin then checking out the bathroom only to find the bathtub and have disturbing thoughts about escaping through that tiny hole. Finally, Battler grabs a chair and attempts to break the windows only to partially accomplished this. Shards poking into his flesh and feeling a slimy hand touching his hand when he tried to break the window from the outside using his hand. The stranger’s hand caressing his hand then biting off his finger  EEEEEEEKKKK! Umineko sure worked on its horror on this one. Too bad, I’m sure the anime version will totally screw these scenes up. /End Red claim

The weirdest thing is the sound provoked by Battler’s scream is heard a bit by Erika and the others when they’re on their way to the guest house but it is quickly dismissed it as the sound of the wind or strange sounds in an old mansion like this one.  Well, that’s just highly disturbing. I even thought for a moment that there was someone being actually imprisoned on the mansion. Now, then! Wouldn’t that be creepy? Good thing that these two events can only be possible if they are disconnected as mentioned at Tea Party.

Based on what’s being mentioned here Erika says that it’s most likely that it’s impossible to hear what’s happening on the main mansion from the guest house because of the distance.  See? this is what I meant by DAWN referring to things I’ve already considered a long time ago and starting to say saying it directly. Erika is already starting to switch to detective mode as they head to the guest house where she’ll battle in a duel to deny magic against someone who is the total opposite of herself – Maria.

They actually stopped by Beatrice’s portrait on their way out and we hear all common theories about the Witch of the forest plus other info. That’s just about enough for Erika to understand everything. Battler jokes about the detective being killed FIRST to which Erika doesn’t seem to have an actual counter saying that’s also possible to happen. Knox’s rules does not prevent the detective of being killed after all. A mistake or not? I’d say that they don’t include it to keep the possibility of something bad happening to the detective in the story and that’s why. Wouldn’t it be completely boring if the detective of a mystery were  to  be killed before the killing even started? Who would solve the crimes then? We all know that Meta Battler did all the work while game board Battler just waited to be killed. Damn foreshadowing.

Maria once again takes out a scorpion charm. Shannon mentions that spiderwebs are useful for repelling evil spirits. Maria mentions that it’s probably because “Beatrice is the incarnation of a butterfly.” That makes you think, doesn’t it? Jessica once again mentions the story about the evil spirits of Akujikishima which I suppose she heard from Kumasawa as seen in previous games. Mission accomplished. Erika has a vast understanding of the situation and they all leave to the guesthouse. This is really like a quick brief of all tales so far.

This is obviously confusing to Babytrice who has been paying attention to the whole thing. Why would she be affected by spiders and such things? Chick Beatrice sees the person on the portrait who it’s her yet it isn’t her. She touches the portrait and enters another dimension where only darkness can be seen and as if hatching from her own egg she wakes up and leaves to the other side of the portrait going back a few years ago. There she meets with her other self, another Beatrice who looks like her but we can tell they aren’t the same at the same time.  Upon being questioned her other half, chick Beatrice realizes that the “mission to live for battler’s sake was probably born later on because this Beatrice doesn’t know what she means by that though this Beatrice knows of Battler’s existence. After a few exchanges they realize that both of them are but fragments of each other, thus neither of them can be considered completed after they meet. Totally crazy impossible theory. Beatrice was clone.

Also the game mentions how the portrait wasn’t there while they were talking. In other words, did that mean that this was at least 2 years in the past..? The game says. Hmmm… elder Beatrice accepts chick Beatrice and reveals her masterplan to her other half about how to gain her power back little by little. Elder Beatrice considers herself to be “ghost wandering” around the mansion atm. They both turned into golden butterflies and disappear into the night. Ushiromiya should really buy some cameras and monitor the whole thing.

<No thank you>. I’m having a seriously intellectual discussion over here.

“The Source of Magic”

Best phrase ever. Meanwhile back to the game board Shannon tells the cousins about these ghost stories where Beatrice was not probably involved. Shanon undermines herself by mentioning she’s a total klutz. I face palmed myself there. Chick Beatrice and Beatrice who I’ll refer as BB from now on start to talk and elder Beatrice mentions how human toxic works. Basically witches can’t be seen or sensed by humans because it’s the same as being denied if they do. Sounds like a excuse for witches don’t exist outside of the game board to me.  Just as I was thinking that, Erika totally tells off Shannon by calling her a list of  synonyms disproving this silly it’s “all done by a Witch” claim. Tell it like it is Erika! George who is getting upset because someone is messing with Shanon, mentions how it also happened when other servants were doing rounds. Not convincing enough. Shanon tells Erika a quick story about an incident where a  magic circle/scribble in the kitchen was found. Of course, this also is  disproven by Erika just after Shanon is done talking after hearing that it was reported by a kid servant who later quit and Shannon never saw it herself.  Erika concludes that servants like to have a little fun telling ghost stories (Kumasawa seems to fall on this category) about the mansion, reason why they play tricks and lie. There’s no way something as the witch of the Forest exists.

This is clearly a U mad? for Maria who rages over anyone who denies Beatrice’s existence. Erika and Maria argue, actually it was all Maria out of control and Erika wanting to crush the illusion of the Witch. Maria is challenged to recreate the magic Beato used to give her candy. No one can stop the loli fight, not even the maid who Erika pushes to the side saying one of the most remarkable phrases I’ve seen in Umineko “No Thank you. I’m having an intellectual conversation over here!”  Both Erika and Maria bump heads and they clash as reality distorts around them.

/popcorn

About time the Fantasy vs. Anti-fantasy battle started! They move to the Golden Land, Lady MARIA  and the Witch of Truth are about to battle.  Dlanor appears and claims Maria is not WORTH of Erika’s time but all Erika wants is to crush the illusion of the Witch and wont’ listen to anyone. Erika sends Dlanor IN with a “Beat her to death!”  role. This is going to be massacre. It’s like putting a extra lightweight against a heavy weigh champ.

Erika starts right away with a magic is impossible claim. “You might be telling a lie about something that never happened!!” followed by Dlanor’s demanding Lady Maria to  answer. Failure to respond will be a violation of Knox’s 7th. Maria believing she is right, answers with her red “this story really happened.” Erika wouldn’t possibly give up after such red claim  and counters “this wouldn’t have anything to do with a trick in actual cup of table, making this just a sleight of hand, right? ” That’d be against the rules. Dlanor follows again with a  “However if only if foreshadowing has been presented these are permitted by Knox’s 8th.” Tricky 8th commandment as usual.

Maria is still as emotional as ever and goes on “they had no such tricks in them!! It was just an ordinary table and ordinary cup!!” Clearly, this is not enough to win. Dlanor claims that by Knox’s 9th they acknowledge that lady MARIA witnessed MAGIC. Pffft. Not even enough, POV can easily destroy this claim any day. Then one of the most hilarious lines they’ve given Jungfrau are uttered by Gertrude, “.. let it be known that this fight has  no point..” That seems to be the case at first glace.. but I disagree.

Because this trick was supposedly be done with magic and BECAUSE Beatrice was a Witch  who could use magic, the claim itself would be destroyed if a normal human could do the same trick. Lady Maria doesn’t believe and wants to see Erika even try. As the trick called Magic is being done, Maria closes her eyes when the incantation is recited. Erika  goes <Stooops> asking Lady MARIA why does she close her eyes when she says the incantation? Why not witness the miracle of magic? I know! Illogical, huh. According to Maria it’s because lowly humans have to close their eyes when using magic otherwise they’d spoil it. Looking very credible there MARIA.

While Maria was busy being emotional and all, Erika had already finished with her Magic… when she turns over the cup..and.. CANDY CAN BE FOUND. She really did it. That.. intellectual rapist… That Erika really can use wonderful magic same as Beatrice.. Lady MARIA is left speechless.

“everything that you ever thought was magic was just a trick that you didn’t get!!” “There’s no way that it was magic! There’s no way magic exiiiiists!!”

NOT! DID YOU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEALY BUY IT!? They even changed the music. The bastards. Now, enters the brutal Mirage Coordinator as background. Everyone knows what that music indicates. Someone is about to get own’ed and that person is not Erika.

Erika’s brutal comeback comes with a   “You’re a mooooooron!!” and starts beating Maria to the ground with her most logical claims how Maria was fooled by such third-rate trick and magic couldn’t possibly be involved.  She gives her blue truth as the detective “While you had your eyes closed. I just lifted the cup up and tossed a candy in!!” As it wasn’t enough she merciless gives then her red truth as the Witch of Truth, “your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was!!” then

“everything that you ever thought was magic was just a trick that you didn’t get!!” “There’s no way that it was magic! There’s no way magic exiiiiists!!”

Goddammit, I knew that Chris Angel guy was just trolling us.

Sakutaro appears and puts some order. Fuck yeah, Sakutaro is back! even though I’m not even cheering for Maria.  The stuffed animal claims is that “p,putting the candy in this cup might have been your sleight of hand, but that doesn’t prove that Beato’s magic was also a sleight of hand” (Uryuu–! Included) Clearly, it could have been. Erika counters with “however, you also can’t prove that I could only have been done with magic!! You rotten stuffed animal!!”

Dlanor stands in the middle and kinda throws everyone away to separate them and stops the fight reminding Erika that Maria and the others are small fry and not even enemies of them thus saving Maria from complete defeat, which is followed by a “know that this is meaningless battle” by Cornelia.  Sakutaro wants to add that “however, it might really have been magic when Maria saw it..! Just because it can be done by a sleight of hand doesn’t disprove magic” Dlanor offers Erika some congratulations on crushing Lady MARIA’s Illusion of Witch. Erika is pissed that their interference ultimately killed her fun and didn’t let her utterly destroy the Illusion of the Witch. Just a bit more. Sakutaro is done too and uses the Diplomatic immunity to declare that this battle is over..! Eh, why does that work again? Erika or Eiserne Jungfrau aren’t bound by any Alliance or contracts related to Beatrice as far as I can tell, y’ know?

Before going Erika hits Maria where it hurts her the most. She does the detective I’m going but I’m coming back to get you, she turns around and says her trademark to Maria with a slight variation, “simply by the existence of the overturned tea cup, this level of reasoning is possible for Furudo Erika. What do you think, everyone?” Maria is utterly defeated by Erika. Didn’t you see THAT coming?

Maria, the loser, stays in the Golden Land crying.. with Sakutaro consoling her telling that Beatrice’s magic is real and it was no trick like Erika claims. Back on the game board, this was translated to exactly what we saw in the magic realm without the magic elements, of course. Erika showed that it was possible for her to perform “magic” and brutally proved Maria wrong. Everyone is mad at Erika for crushing a kid’s dream in believing in magic. Erika apologizes in a disdainful manner and doesn’t let her get to her. All cousins are more than ready head to upstairs and leave Erika alone to play cards. Before they go game board Maria turns into creepy Maria and tells Erika how she is the same as people who don’t believe in magic who are full of anti-magic toxins. Both of them wish to have another duel in a near future. *Kihihihihihihi.* I suppose it was only time creepy Maria had reappeared

Kumasawa, who was apparently taking a bath, appears now that everyone is gone and finds only Erika. That’s fine actually because it was her who called her to ask her about the legend of this island.  You’re probably asking where in the hell is Kanon at? It’s been ages since he appeared after the game started. Someone is sure working hard on these SKanon theories and it isn’t me.

“The Lovers”

Next scene is but a long story about George having character depth which I refer to as a way to put some background to characters where there really isn’t one in the first place. This time George yaps about how useless he used to be back then and because he got jealous of Battler he changed and became a better person for Shannon.  Then he goes on how they’ll be super happy and that he’ll tell the family about the engagement the next day. Back to  AA  they’re just watching this soap opera which Featherine happens to enjoy, on the other hand Ange is NOT amused and not digging George’s tired act about being nice gentlemen and then something about virgins trying too hard (for Ange I guess) I just had to quote her. Some major virgin hating going on in this tale lol. It was  simply priceless. Also 101 guideline to be liked by Ange – actually don’t be nice to her and do the total opposite OR be called Battler. Just as they’re about finished and George has finished his  speech of why Shannon should marry him and taking on everyone as his enemies if necessary. As if he could really kill anyone irl. They leave the garden shed.

Erika is simply bored out her mind as I am with these developments too and quickly makes sense of it by theorizing that George is a presumed criminal and also this was to give Shannon more screentime. Battler is extremely super touchy lately about his lovey-dovey mystery being mocked and it being yawn inducing.  Hey, don’t look at me. Your the game master on this one. To counter her claims Battler claims that Erika has no love. Well, well, isn’t this the all time debate about  Pathos and Logos?  Dlanor already read the situation and tells Erika to ignore Battler and that these scenes are better finished QUICKLY.  The game continues. Btw, Battler, you never really answered any of the questions you were asked and only chose to play defensive here.  Way to defend your point. Unless we understand what type of “truth” you found to forgive Beatrice we’ll never be able to understand you in this Game.

Shannon comes to the servant room where Genji is there waiting and so is Kanon who has been hiding since he got his (still weird) smile back. When alone both of them once again talk about their battle royal for love in this story. Kanon who was also invited to play cards with the cousins is heading upstairs. The chick Beato  and Beatrice are watching this scene too and comment on how she had no idea what they had kept the brooch even after broken, emphasizing once again how powerful the brooch is.

Meanwhile, we reach the last part of this entry with the two final events : Kumasawa being interrogated by Erika and Beatrice’s contradiction on her existence and origin. After listening to the stories about the island Erika points out the multiple contradictions on both the Witch’s and the Island’s legends then cleverly reaching a conclusion that it’s more than clear that both of them have been combined into one by the people who believed in them. The idea of the Witch was enhanced by Kinzo’s madness, the portrait, and the odd history of the island believed to be a place where evil spirits gathered.  Everything fits. Kumasawa knows herself that Erika is right about both legends being too inconsistent so there’s nothing she could really say. Once again turning and facing the room Erika utters her favorite catch phrase. – What do you think, everyone?

As to match the scene both Elder Beatrice and chick Beato are there. Elder Beatrice tries to do exactly what the legends say about her being weak towards Spiders’ webs and touch it only to have her finger burned. When asked by 2nd Beato she categorically denies the possibility of being an evil spirit. The other Beato tries the same and nothing happens to her. To go even further they go to Kinzo’s study room and elder Beatrice tries to turn the knob  with the magic repelling knob but as expected she only gets badly burned. On the other hand, chick Beatrice can touch the knob just fine just like she was a real human. What ARE you, Beatrice? Finally, both Beatrice try to join together and become one but nothing happens at this moment. Maybe it really isn’t the time like elder Beatrice claims.

<END>

Let’s Reason this OUT

As mentioned since DAWN doesn’t exactly has to do with any “real” murders but rather provides hints and other red-herrings to the story, therefore I am in the position of making the most sense out of the situations and to filter out whatever isn’t actually related to the mystery and to deeply question details of why this and that occur in the story. Blue Truth equipped.

Who is the Witch outside? – The eerie scene in that “perfect” closed room where Battler’s hand gets caught while he was trying to break the windows. Let’s think of some hints. This figure was WHITE. The fact that it was practically laughing at him. Also the fact that Battler doesn’t mention Beatrice’s name ever yet called it Witch due to being scared. Not to mention how his finger is precisely the object of the torture. Lastly, how it doesn’t provide any help. Who do you think that is?

We could simply theorize that this is in fact the Witches’ doing who have entered his mind and borrowed the most traumatic events from his childhood when Battler feared the image of the Witch and mashed them all of this together. However, based on the evidence and assuming it was one of the characters in the story I believe that the “Witch” he *think* he saw was no other than Erika.

The Magic Trick – I’d like most to disagree with the (though funny) statement that that was a pointless fight. It was so rich not to mention EPIC.  It was the best moment of these 3 parts of this entry. The battle certainly proved that while it could have still been done by Magic, it could have also NOT been done by Magic, thus Magic was denied. NOW, I’d like to make you remember of where exactly did Maria get her candies from in past EPs? She usually get hers while she was in the rose garden when her rose was lost/stolen by god knows who. So we could theorize that whoever gave Maria candy did a similar trick to cheer Maria up.. What about these letter she receives magically appearing out of nowhere? Maria can be easily deceived under the pretense of magic. Maria demonstrated once again the fact that everyone knows. That her POV is untrustworthy because she can be so easily tricked.

Maria and rose garden – This as we can see was a battle between Lady MARIA and The Witch of Truth in the magic real in the Golden Land. What was most interesting was how the final result was the same as in previous arcs – In the game board Maria is left alone crying in the rose garden because she was stubborn to forget about the rose or about magic, which was extremely similar to Lady MARIA crying after being defeated by the Witch of Truth by denying the miracle of magic. Both of these scenes end once again with Maria crying in a garden-like place. Not necessary a piece of evidence but I found it very unique how Maria always get a scene in the rose garden place no matter what Game we are on. This I already mentioned in End of the Golden Witch posts but it’s still amusing to see how DAWN handled this one giving it this variation including Erika.

the truth with most votes wins

George’s past / as Culprit – Everything here looked to me as “Let’s get George some story!”  type of approach. George has only shown this “strong” side to him in EP4 then acted weak in past EPs and being totally forgettable in EP5, therefore these “George might be evil/mastermind/strong” titles never fit him well. Sorry, but I’m 100% with Erika on this one, Batora. I’d take it a bit better this wa a relatively new development but almost all Game somehow show these scenes that has been covered so many times that you can’t help but saying inside your head “Get it over with. There’s a mystery somewhere in this story!” I think I even liked Jessica and Kanon’s relationship better. And that’s saying something.

Before Battler gets all touchy on her, Erika mentions how this served as foreshadowing for possible motives for George to commit murder. Most logical. However, I can’t think of George as the culprit and I think Erika knows it too. George is simply too dull. I know that later on he takes this trial and *kills* you know who but was still all symbolic to me. George can struggle and fight, but also possesses too many morals and he is ultimately unable to become a “demon” like he claims. In other words, he’s still too limited yet is under the illusion that he is ready, which is quite foolish. I’d be damned if George could turn out to the criminal. He hasn’t suffered enough in this tale to deserve such position. Compared to what others have suffered, rich boy George’s type teenage crush story and taking on the World as his enemy is nothing but bravado where the consequences to him don’t go further than losing his rich status. Even the position of accomplice is more than enough for him.  Seeing it logically this scene was meant to give George’s character larger depth, be sympathetic towards the couple, and to hint further towards Shanon’s involvement in DAWN. Should anyone be suspected in that relationship is Shannon. George is simply too unfit to be the killer for too many reasons including being a terrible twist. No to mention  it comes way too later on in the story and violates Knox’s Decalogue. Is this logical enough, Battler-san?

SKanon theory – GET. Well, I still don’t believe in it because I never believed it in the first place. One is because it simply ignores common sense and becomes too ridiculous. To me, DAWN to me is simply rubbing it in our faces how tricky these mystery can get. I’m sure there’s a logical solution and that Kanon and Shannon are still two different people. Meanwhile, since I have already been made self conscious of this unwanted possibility. I caught this disturbing screen shot. I just had to find amusing how Kanon was nowhere to be found until Shanon reached the guesthouse and met both Genji and supposedly Kanon waiting on the servants’ room.

Sakutaro theory / Where? – on the other hand, Sakutaro was pretty epic. So about where Sakutaro is – If you’ve read Sakutarou to Purgatory mountain before then you’d know that there’s some interesting ending there. The part where it says, “He could hear someone’s voice. He could hear the sound of someone descending wooden steps” ties very well with future Ange finding him on the captain’s boat when she was heading to Rokkenjima.

A possible theory Sacchi mentioned while the anime was airing that maybe Rosa was bringing Sakutarou to Rokkenjima as a surprise present for Maria. What I concluded after reading this TIP the other day was that it was only possible for her to do it because she was the only one in possession of it after it was taken away and torn apart and who else will have it? It’s likely that Rosa was patching him up when she calmed herself. Sadly it didn’t look as great as it once did.  “Will I be recognized as Sakutarou? And then,… will I be taken, to where Maria is?” This fits with Sakutaro doubting Maria will recognize him because of the condition he is in. The last part of the puzzle is that Rosa forgot the stuffed animal on the boat which is why both of them are never able to truly make up as this game keeps repeating and why future Ange later finds Sakutarou on the Captain’s boat. It fits perfectly.

Beatrice and her shenanigans at night – she refers to herself as something as a “ghost wandering” which sounds most precise because that’s what normally people think if something of paranormal nature were to happen. I like Featherine’s most logical claim that, “if one wishes to have them be accepted in a certain manner, they must first create a suitable environment.” This is true. There wouldn’t be all these ghost stories and legends  around the world if people wouldn’t be afraid of what they don’t know and they wouldn’t care to pass them on. For Beatrice’s case the reason why the locks and windows are left unlocked could always be attributed to someone playing pranks same as a Witch doing it.

I even have additional claims of my own, for example the kid servant or in general the servants did it to play a trick on the masters (I can totally see this) Or because they wanted to get themselves fired. Why? They saw something that shouldn’t or didn’t approve of (Kinzo comes to mind).  Were tired or they simply couldn’t take it anymore and decided to leave even under the excuse. Also in response to why “Beatrice didn’t use fire or more drastic measures to prove her existence” That’s easy too. It’s because they didn’t want to pull such a huge prank so the police or other parties would get involved and eventually corner the culprit. See? There’s many ways to deny the existence of Witch I could go on, but I’ll stop myself here because it doesn’t get me closer to finding the culprit.

So who could have done them? – Well, if these “pranks” were done by a human(s) and regardless whether it “seemed” impossible for a person to be able to do them without being noticed or not, then I’ll ask this. Wouldn’t it make sense if the person or Group who did it was the same over the years? If the servants/Ushiromiya are lying about not being involved then that’d mean that at some point they “played” Witch. First of all, I can’t see why ALL of Krauss’ family would lie about it or even do it.  It’s not like all of them believe in the Witch. Actually Natsuhi only believed in her existence in EP5 and then completed denied her in the others so it’s not clear where she stands here.

Second, since the only Ushiromiya who live in there are Krauss’s family and the other siblings only visit on the day of the family meeting on certain days. Not to mention it’s an island not exactly easy to reach, it’s just too ridiculous to think they could be directly involved in these pranks, meaning that it was done by “other people” rather than themselves. Unlike the Ushiromiya/siblings, the furniture covering up one after another sounds extremely convincing if not the only answer if  aren’t afraid to jump the gun.  The servants did it and they’re lying. We have the old servants who did it to play pranks and we’d have others who did it for their own reasons possibly to create the illusion of Witch on Rokkenjima.  It matters not, the result is the same – thus a Witch existed.

Beatrice and Chick Beatrice – This part intrigued me greatly. We listened to a lengthy conversation between Beatrices with her other self wondering who they really are. That didn’t intrigue me as much as the very fact that Beatrice was talking to herself and I reach some conclusions based on that. First, imagine you’re in a similar position as Beatrice and you meet your other half or something like that and you tell *yourself* a story about your possible origin. What do you expect to hear? Is it reliable? Biased? Deceitful?

My point is that the conversations between these Beatrices come as a surprise because technically, there should not be a real reason for Beatrice to lie to HERSELF. … And I just went against my deep anti-fantasy nature. Who would they try to deceive.. the reader? It’s impossible but both of them seem to be seeking answers and being told lies by the other party does not add and defeats the point of these Beatrice trying to help herself which is basically the whole point of the DAWN. What’s the point in lying to yourself? To protect yourself?

Elder Beatrice seemed as lost as chick Beatrice and unaware of the future events or of Battler. This to us seemed truthful. So what about all those stories about losing her body because of Kinzo then messing around the mansion and playing tricks for the past 2 years? Are they true and not lies? While Erika’s truth contrasts with Beatrice’s claims thus cancel each other out, it’s highly interesting how these conversations between Beatrices should be regarded as “truth” in some way by the fact that Beatrice would fall in a total contradiction of herself by pointless lying to herself. Is even her other self as delusional as her own existence? Am I suppose to accept something such as this as “truth” because of this reasoning?

Tea Party

Just added all TIPS I could find under the TIPS menu. Make sure you read whatever TIPS you didn’t. So I already dealt with two cases  suicides and recently with Accidental deaths in Umineko. Also you can find that post about debatable Logic Error in DAWN where “what if’s” are involved in which nitpicking of the mystery can be found.

Possible future entries : “Of Natural death” and its implications, finally finish post about “Cannibalism in the When they Cry series”, and an “inconsistency  (of the many) between EP3 and Hachijo Tohya’s tale” which just happen to contradict one another. Am I missing something here?

Game master thoughts

Pretty good scenes in DAWN. I wasn’t overly interested in the rest of the story but I already explained how I interpreted and what got from them. On the other hand, I so thoroughly enjoyed the mystery and magic battles  and how smooth they switched between them especially on Maria and Erika’s scene was perfect. Beatrice’s journey to find herself and how complex her existence is was very interesting, however by the theories I mentioned I find myself denying and accepting her more than usual. A dilemma.

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9 thoughts on “Blogging Umineko Chiru DAWN – 36 – In which it does [Not] always Follow

  1. I slowly realize why you’re so unsatisfied with the conclusions from EP6. Perhaps you really was searching for answers at the wrong places at times and focus to much on Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy vs. Whatever perspectives. You seem to mention all the important clues but don’t connected them to get a bigger picture the way I tried, disregarding parts of the story as annoying or distracting because they deal with magic (and no I wasn’t thinking about Shkanon here).
    I think DAWN as many useful answer even in this part of the story addressed.
    So here are my takes and further thoughts on your special topics reasoning.

    As most of this reasoning was formed by involving topics from other tales you may also consider more backtracking til EP7 gets out. Even the story (and Ryu07 in his interviews) tells you multiple times how the answer can be found in earlier games if you combine it with the new hints carefully.
    And as I already quoted before his approach to solve the mystery in the core arcs is like Higurashi but taking the training wheels of. So I assume those cryptic revelations are already supported to be answers. But you wouldn’t want it any other way, right? :D

    The witch of Battlers torture room:
    I don’t think that this “person” is meant to be anyone specify. The whole story in this room was filled with surreal horror (and I really liked this return to a bit of horror flair), so I guess it doesn’t have to make sense. After all everything tormenting Battler in there was just a mystification of the red truths restricting his escape option. And those were just a represention of his real action put into non-option-rules. So as a conclusion he couldn’t try to escape through the window simply because in reality he didn’t took this way. The part of the stuff touching him and biting his finger seemed to me just like the idea how he would cut himself with glass shards if he tried to break the window without tools to do this in a clever way and the legend of the faceless and dangerous “lady of the woods” lurking in the dark taking form from his fear and rising paranoia. There is also some reference to simply situation happening when he was visiting Rokkenjima as a kid. So this may just invoke some childhood nightmares.
    Metaphorical that strange tortures really are Erika punishing Battler for trying to force his way out of the room by violating her / his red truths. But I don’t think she is literally biting his fingers even if she likes to torture him with wedding rings from hell. ^^

    Magic fight / Maria vs. Erika:
    I guess you are right this scene is far from pointless, but I also understand why Dlanor would say so. She just wants to solve the murders and candy magic just has no relevance for this. It even got address before as clearly just the illusionary part of magical interpretations. And Beato also never wanted to make a mystery out of it because she most like deemed it as heartless as Erika was to appear by ripping apart Marias dreams. Dlanor also talked to Virgilia about interpretations and viewpoint regarding magic so its obvious she already sorted this stuff out (unlike Erika) and sees no point in starting a debate on principles about magic as a whole as a approach to find answers for murder. Erika really has much to here. Battler and the reader already understood this in EP3. And Erika/Bern even dealt with this EP5 already. Marias and her candys are just like Natushi and Beato drinking tea in the rose garden…. a illusion not worth denying.

    But I really saw the importance of this scene somewhere else and I was really surprise you never even mentioned this. After all there is Golden Truth in it.
    IMO the really intention of this scene is to make you think about whats up with that as it gets used in totally unexpected and unintuitive ways.

    So here is my approach: This is an ANSWER formulated as a riddle. And the question is: “Why is this golden truth able confirm the existence of magic in contradiction to the reasonable red truth and how does it contrast to the application of Golden Truth in EP5 contradicting a unreasonable truth?”
    See what we gain here? This seem like the application if this theoretical “sometimes stronger, sometimes weaker then red” and when we compare the scenes and analyze the important difference we may also understand why EP5 even worked out this way and this way we can understand what Battler found as his truth so we can solve major parts of the mystery.
    Problem is here ends may reasoning as I haven’t found this important aspect. I guess its something about GMs interpretation of the gameboard vs. real reality but I don’t have a conclusive answer yet.

    Maria in the rose garden:
    Interesting observation… never thought about he her “placement” in the garden is some kind of important rule to the setting. But still I guess what her special rose really is about in the first place is even more important for this. I didn’t find helpful clues in the story connectible to this until now. Did you?

    George’s past:
    Again a slightly different interpretation what this was about. I’m with you on this “its a bit to late for this descriptive characterization”. I also consider this highly ineffective to convey he could be a evil mastermind and more tries to give him some reason of sympathy. But I think Ryu07 was very clever in was topics he picked to present. After all he tells us his Mr. Perfect farce to hide his insecurities. He considered how he really was some kind of rich snob and how he saw himself superior to people like Battler and Jessica who were more “normal” while he became some kind of outside… also having problems dealing with the ladies and never getting the hang of this (even making fun of virgins though Ange as you stated) and stated with self loathing. All of this only ended when he fell in love with Shannon.
    My take on this is he really tried to push some clichéd hardcore otaku lifestyle concept here which overlaps with his behavior at quite a bit. Considering he is really addressing his games to a Japanese audience, he often liked to put some social commentary between the lines and otakus are assumed the majority of the target audience for VNs this make really ring a bell in some of his readers and achieve this goal of making him more sympathetic and more of an very rich variation of the “everyday loser Shinji” character template. ^^
    But I don’t think this scene is really that much about the implications for George as its about Shannons position in this. This scene really drives the point home how much “power” Shannon had over him. He really trust her completely and at the same time the story is pushing some weird shit about secrets between her, Kanon and Beatrice so much…. perhaps he isn’t a mastermind at all but really just Tomitake 2.0
    Consider this: George is shown heartbroken when Shannon gets killed again and again crying manly tears and all. But do we ever get the reversed situation where Shannon is shown in despair over losing him? Thats really strange if you think about it for a moment. She always vows eternal love in magical scenes and when they are together but you get very little else to back that up by some clearly proven or convincing actions. If she really intended to mess with him and make him some sort of pawn for her ulterior motives she really had many options.
    But perhaps thats just me supporting this theory that there must be some trick to the structure of two really similar Romeo/Julia stories in one tale. So one may be fake.

    Sakutarou in Purgatory:
    Thats interesting as I didn’t notice there was a new TIPS text but him. Really interesting stuff and I guess the toy got lost somewhere like the boat or the island is most likely. After all we get torn cloth, dust, water, smelling of smoke… that all sounds like an abandoned toy put in some duty place to rest. Its was a futon shop, so maybe some other kids played with it until it got all worn out. Smoke from all the different customers. Only strange contradiction is how Rosa had torn it apart at home and there is little reason to assume Maria took it back to the island once again after this. Its not like the story told you she tried to revive it. Its precisely the opposite as she abandoned the toy as Rosa had to fix it.
    So demystified Ange just found Marias’s Sakutarou in the shop and convinced her that this really is hers even if he didn’t resemble her cute lion anymore. That really makes sense in the context of “reviving by bringing by an idea” and also regarding viewpoint and the influence of “love” on this.

    About Shkannon hint by George:
    I understood this more as a reference to his earlier talk about Battler who also indirectly forced him to change his mindset but perhaps thats always a later part of the discussion and I’m mistaken but still interesting thought. If George really knew Shannon as Shkannon this oh so annoying love story gets a lot more twisted and freaky. XD

    2x Beatrice, pranks etc. (aka the big topic)
    So this is the point where I again have to wonder how you could state all the little clues and even make some relevant observation but don’t connect the puzzle pieces.
    I like your idea of the implication of Beatrice talking to herself but I really don’t think this part is about this at all. The story suggest multiple times how those two Beatrices are two separate entities (they say and confirm this themselves and even Erika/Kumasawa discuss this as you mentioned yourself) and they even try to be one and it doesn’t work (yet) … another important hint. So I see no point in pretending this is just some externalized monologue.

    I conclude from this entire Chick/Elder Beato story that this was supposed to give to TWO precise answer to fit some earlier puzzle pieces together.

    The first one is Kinzos relation to real Beatrice as Chick Beatrice. Why Kinzo? Well because Battler is acting like him the whole damn time. I already mentioned how I couldn’t even read this Battler stuff without interpretation it as a analogy to Kinzo once before. Battler acts totally out of character in EP6 but he is really fitting as a Kinzo analogy. If you assume Ryu07 wanted to make this a big plot point you can even view this in the bigger picture. Let’s see: Battler was always struggling to find his way and what was the right thing to do (EP1-4) but when everything seemed lost he had the one-in-a-life-opportunity to prove himself worthy against all odd and gain some big fame for this (EP5 end + GM Battler title) but this bite him in the ass as he slowly got dragged down by his victory and this ends in mad love and depression even borderline insanity. To end it he tried his final trick which never worked out well and as a result he lived the rest of his life like in a cage build from a closed room tormented by his own errors in methodology until he “dies”. That is until Beato comes to save him in some final invocation of magic. That a very abstract version of Battlers games but this also Kinzo life in a nutshell.
    For more specific implications of this analogy I come back to this later after addressing the other answer.

    The second answer I see here is how the whole mess about all those Beatrice ideas really get sorted out…. and here it gets a bit more complex.
    As I mentioned this story tells how their are two Beatrice which a nothing alike. I even would suggest that their are 3 parts to Beatrice but let’s save this for later.
    So what’s really their differences between those two? The spiderwebs and magic repelling charms get addressed real much so I thought them may be meant to give the big hints here. My conclusion from this is: Chick Beatrice really is a human and Elder Beatrice is a “higher being” and they have nothing similar besides their names.
    So let’s just call them human Beatrice and magic Beatrice for the sake of this argument.
    After all what makes human Beatrice the famous witch? Actually nothing. She is not effected by supernatural stuff nor can she use witchcraft or even knows anything about it. The only thing that links her to the famous witch is how other CALL her Beatrice. And as Battler is concerned the most about this that makes this Kinzos past in my theory (but let’s still not forget the love for Battler stuff which also ist important). On the other side magical Beatrice is clearly stated to represent everything about the witch legend so she is real more a myth then anything. So we learn how those two things have to be brought together to get the Beato we all knew of and I would call this a new 3rd Beatrice.
    See how this is an answer? There was talk about the legend and a real person named Beatrice on Rokkenjima starting with EP1 and I already discussed about those EP4 TIPS which deal with Beatos compendium composed of 2 of those “concept” with got merged into something completely different from the others. So this two Beatrice persons are just a less cryptic explanation for this two aspect that everybody ingame seem to confuse for a third. We even can try to fit the ideas of the Golden and the Endless to this. So human Beatrice obviously had to be linked to the Gold so she is the Golden part and the magical Beatrice fits the whole Endless magic stuff (but I’m not entirely show of this last part)

    But more importantly: Who is this human Beatrice? Her innocence, timid and helpless characterization should remind you of another Beatrice we got told about: Rosa’s Beatrice from EP3. Their are both so similar and so different from all other appearances of any Beato/Beatrice that I just take this as the link to the real world background. So this makes all that is Battler musing about some warped version of Kinzos problems. And it all fits: Kumasawa and Genji are besides this human Beatrice to help her cope with Battlers strange raging about her behavior (we know both servants were dealing with the person living in Kuwadorian from EP4) and the whole problem results from Battlers/Kinzos misguided feeling for this person who isn’t really able to behave like the “real” Beatrice. So Kawasawa/Virgilia is teaching her the stuff she needs to know about magic / what Kinzo wanted Beatrice to be like.
    But one think is still strange or totally gross depending on viewpoint. It makes little sense to assume Rosa’s Beatrice really was Kinzos lover. At first she didn’t know anything about her existence so how should she give Kinzo a mountain of gold? Also: Would Kinzo really fall madly in love with a teenager and imprison her on an island? What kind of creep is he? And where would such a girl get so much gold?
    No thats not the answer… EP3 even gave you much more hints to work this out: The story was talking about Kinzo putting Beatrice soul into a homunculus which had none of her memories but still looked like her. It also suggested when Rosa’s Beatrice died her soul was freed once again like before he put her into this homunculus. It think that really obvious. Even when I read EP3 I took this as a mystified interpretation of Kinzo having a daughter. So in consequence Beatrices mother was Kinzo original lover. But she obviously died (soul aka magical Beatrice roaming the island) but had a child which didn’t know of anything what happened before and as his relation to Beatrice was a secret he also hid his daughter on the island from who knows what.
    Is their any doubt left why this man was driven insane if you consider that he not only saw his wife (he most likely didn’t cared much about) but also his lover he was madly in love with die. And then he really doted on his daughter (or even more… urrgs O_o) and she was ironically “killed” by her own step-sister who wanted to help her all happening because Kinzo messed up by giving her a chance to escape her safe golden cage. He even heard the “boy” he took from the orphanage to become the new her (seems he liked him for some reason to give him such a “chance” in life) got killed in some gruesome way really similar to his daughter. No wonder he was laughing insanely getting those bad news afterwards. He really must have felt like cursed by fate to get everybody he REALLY cared about taken way in tragic ways (except for his lover where we know next to nothing about the circumstances…. but didn’t the story also consider suicide? O_O ).

    So let’s just put the rest together chronologically:
    Rokkenjima is feared by sailors for riffs or volcanoes on nearby islands or whatever resulting in the legend of faceless ghosts. People avoid the place.
    Thats where this all started most likely. That may even be the reason why the family is here in the first place. Remember the talk of the children in EP1 about how the gold may have been on the island all along and Kinzo just claimed this place his own for this reason? They quickly switch the topic to how the gold may not even be real or on the island but we got proven by red truth that those ideas are realistic but still wrong.
    So we can go back to the initial idea of how this gold may have been hidden on the island from the start. Thats a really convenient place to hidden it for a long time if most people are afraid to even go to this island. So perhaps Kinzo just took the gold and tricked the owner into making this his private property (EP1 and some of the newer TIPS suggest he had ties with the occupying forces after WW2 because of his knowledge of English and western culture and his wealth) and build the mansion for this wife to live there. This lover should already have been part of the story by know as she was connected to the gold and so I guess he hid her in Kuwadorian or build it for her while he also had his own mansion as his “official” home.

    Later he got children from his wife so he had to deal with them AND his wife searching the woods so he invented the witch story which was a variation of the ghost legend. This served a double purpose of making sure the kid done get lost in the woods (or are put to real danger in their) and nobody finding Kuwadorian accidentally.

    Later Beatrice died but her daughter live on in Kuwadorian aided by the (by chessboard time) elder servants and tried to smooth over the many conflicts with Kinzo who may “confuse” her for the “real” Beatrice (consider Battlers “why can’t you act like Beato”, Beato’s FURIOUS annoyance about Shannons innocent love to George and how she was even “warning” Shannon for when George may view her with lustful eye… I think this gives another disturbing hint to what human Beatrice was really stress over).

    After this human Beatrice tried to learn what magic was about but I guess that just means she tried to act like her mother (perhaps unknowingly so) and I consider all this stuff about her talking to magical Beatrice is just noise as the important parts of the magical Beatrice just kicked in years later when the family conference got important.
    I assume Kumasawa just tried to honor the story of the live of human Beatrice by embellishing those myths about the lady of the forests a bit more (after all she is that kind of gossiping granny) and when Kinzo put this portraits up all those servants who worked on the island had a face to associate to this mysterious witch which still was formless most of the time (like the ghosts from the past… makes sense). This is even consistent with this stuff about how human Beatrice meets magical Beatrice by going to the portrait in EP6.

    See whats missing until know? All the kids generations involvement in this whole legend stuff is missing. EP6 really tries to convince you that they have the main roles in this play and even EP1 suggested it as only the kids were present in Purgatoria (even those which didn’t make it to the golden land) and only the kids show affinity to magic while all the adults get slaughtered like pawns in most of the games. After all this whole “Battlers sin course the tragedy” isn’t just about Kinzo analogys but the real Battler really has some link to this whole messed up Beatrice problem.

    And here we have to switch from EP3 flashbacks to EP2 flashbacks as those tell most of the stuff in those years immediately before the conference which is relevant for this.
    I know you don’t like Shkanon theories but I still think we cannot avoid them here because their is something very weird in those flashbacks. Beatrice only do interact with Kanon and Shannon. Not even Kinzo, Kuwasawa and Genji who most likely warped the legend about the witch to its present form are able to she her. I think that a BIG hint we are dealing with a completely different problem which only concerns those two servants and what they have to cope with (mostly their shitty lives and their love drama). And so I would call THEIR Beatrice just a delusion shared by both (no matter if they are one person or two) like Sakutarou to Maria. And thats the magical Beatrice for sure. She got “stronger” (aka more people believed in her) by those pranks and superstitions which got associated with black magic and bad omens because of Kinzos hobby. Also Shannon breaking this mirror finally made her recover so much that she could revive later on. That again is consistent with the legend part as this shrine and mirror was the last link to the ancient ghost legend so now Beatrice just was the witch and all the servants only propagated those witch stories and that spread more of the “witch darkness” / did away with the toxin, so Beatrice got more and more willing believers and gained in power.

    I guess when the conference starts those two Beatrices finally were able to merge as this was the first time the adults also took the legend serious and make the gold and the magical power part of the same mythos. The carefully staged letter made them believe in some ominous person sent by Kinzo to mess with the gold and inheritance. But there also is a big shift in Beatrice actions here. While Beatrice was at least partways kind and noble when dealing with Shannons love problems and meeting her at the beach she is pure evil and sadistically cruel when the ceremony starts so I interpret this as Beatrice becoming Beato when the two days start as thats the place and time when both ideas mix to result in insane murder or some well prepared disaster like the ominous bomb incident.
    After all its also the way EP6 presents the ending. When Battler already is “dead” she revives by combining the Chick and Elder to regain the ideas of the old Beato about riddles and murders and mess with the detective.

    The only thing missing still is how Battlers sin (his promise or whatever) make Shannon/Kanons Beatrice a murderous entity and how this is connected to the human Beatrice from Kuwadorian.

    So I think I sorted out which Beatrice belongs where mostly consistent and put the older pieces and those few new ones from EP6 into one train of thoughts and it also explains Kinzos role in this. And that was mostly possible because those “magical” scene from EP6 were still really more straight forward “answer” to topic which were filled with noise and cryptic abstractions before.

    Any objections to this approach / solution? Some inconsistencies I didn’t mention?

    Last thought about this divide of Beatrice in two parts. There is also Dress-Beatrice vs. Suit-Beatrice in the question arcs and I was always wonder why nobody ever seemed to notice how Beatrice patterns on her dress vaguely resemble flame surrounding a round object like this bomb which likely coursed the final incident killing the last survivors. So if this is a hint that Dress-Beatrice is the non human “murderer” while Suit-Beatrice is the human culprit that changes a lot. After all we thought dress and suit were the reference to piece and meta character. But in EP4 both were present on the board and they changed roles (so 2 pieces after all). That makes alot more sense now. Remember what Dress-Beatrice did after the exchange? She only killed Kinzo with fire (most likely fake) and fought with Battler to also finished everything by killing him. But she even had this switch before in EP2 when Battler finally met her. Once again she only kills Kinzo and Battler with the goats (which I still associate with fire). So it all fits and that part of Kinzo getting “burned” by Beatrice may not even be magical as Kinzos corpse could really have been kept around in EP2+4 without anyone putting him into the boiler, so the bomb/fire in the house did not kill but still burn his corpse.

  2. @ Digdri

    Objection? Many. Actually, I’m the one surprised to see our reasoning being that different. We seemed to reached similar conclusions before but the results are turning out to not be the same. This goes far beyond different interpretations. The difference here is that both *approaches* to the “Mystery” are different thus different Truths collide. I can’t help but realizing you’re been too swayed by DAWN alone and turning much to pro-fantasy.

    > My own red: “The Illusion of the Witch is my enemy. I serve as the Detective and I represent the Logic and Reasoning side and I try to be as precise and logical as possible. Giving up to the illusion of the Witch is no better giving up the fantasy genre. My work as the detective is to present a proper solution the killings and prove the culprit is clearly human pretending to be a Witch”.

    I see you are switching between logic and fantasy and taking many liberties by doing so. I’d have to question if this was a real witch game, what would your position be? Your approach is a lot like an “observer” and your position isn’t clear because of it. Do you deny or do you believe?

    Room
    Torture rooms and others unrelated/not so relevant topics to the culprit are but simple theories and logical assumptions by me. I present both parts, the “what if’s” and then the “more likely” conclusions (this can be seen in the witches’ abusing Battler’s fears.) They aren’t necessarily supposed to give info on the culprit of the story. They are but for plain amusement.

    On magic
    The illusion of Witch/magic is pointless besides to the very person who believes in them. It impossible to be accepted by everyone in the world. This is mentioned in EP4 using Ange once again. If we don’t believe it in Magic certainly doesn’t exist. I believe this is a known claim. Maria wishes everyone to believe but she is unable to fully prove it by herself. In a world where common reasoning rules, Maria is still a child who hasn’t grown up and can’t accept reality. This is what everyone thinks but doesn’t dare say it and still has spoiled her for so long. Dlanor is right about not being worth the time, I also did, but also everyone in the tale disregard the fact that Maria’s belief in the illusion of the “Witch” is another factor that *still* contributes to the killings because Maria same as the servants continue trying to make everyone believe in this illusion. The worst part is that they even try to cover it up in EP5, which I found far too ridiculous. Thus truth gets distorted once again. In fact part of the tragedies have occurred because Maria believes in magic, has turned into a weird kid and makes room for a Witch, a human criminal, to exist. That’s also another reason why Erika is so persistently about it because it clouds other truths but since everyone is always against her even though she may be *right* she is hated. Logic presents a logical solution no matter what the outcome is. It isn’t always supposedly to be pretty or nice like everyone expects it. The Beatrice even mentions the same to Battler many times. That’s another reason why many fans don’t like Logic and forget about it when it’s convenient.

    This is a common occurrence when looking at problems. People only either look at the good side and judge or look at the bad side and judge. They hardly look at both sides and think carefully, which no better than random thought and letting your emotions take over. This is also a main reason why so many fans either love to death some characters or why they think this is it and that is that. If this interferes too much with the judgment then it becomes a problem for someone playing the role of the Detective who is supposedly to be logical and impartial as humanly possible. If the readers don’t wish or can’t reach that level then they are still the biased forces, spectators, theatergoers, of this play even if they don’t believe so. How can we reach a satisfying and “proper” truth if such factors get in the way? This is why I don’t agree with this type of reasoning and why I’m not fond of Battler’s irrationality. This tale will be rewritten once again and his *truth* he doesn’t care to show might change. And it’ll change once again when the real truth comes out when the cat box is opened.

    On Rose garden –
    Maria and the rose garden are related to the existence of magic on Rokkenjima. Maria and the placement a.k.a set up is simple. Maria is “all alone” outside in the rain and no apparently no one has noticed her disappearance thus “supposedly” not a single person could possibly be with her or even involved. This makes a hole for the first time in ours (and theirs) reasoning since the family conference starts. It implies that there is an “X” person on the island and at the same time opens the possibly (though hardly believable) that a “Witch” exists and is responsible for the murders. The rose garden, such desolated place at this point, serves that purpose because it’s the very place where magic is “born” for the first time since the family conference starts. To me the necessity of having Maria there is the origin where magic appears on the island creating doubts and “what if’s” arguments are created. “A Witch exists” Maria wants others to believe in the Witch and magic. Simply the rose garden serves as her best argument of it. The rose as already believed it probably represents her “mother’s lost love” or what I believe actually it’s that this scene represents Maria waiting for her mother to come get her because she still cares. DAWN uses Erika to disprove that magic Maria cares so much about. This is similar to the siblings/etc not believing in Maria receiving a letter from the Beatrice on that night and as a result denying magic once again and Maria getting mad/crying. Thus, why that place is so crucial to Maria. Because the magic in Rokkenjima and Maria’s is born on that day and there’s a chance for these “walking toxin lumps” to believe in it and for her to be happy. Let’s move on to next point.

    “But do we ever get the reversed situation where Shannon is shown in despair over losing him?”

    Same for Kanon who IRCC never sheds a tear for Shannon when she’s killed. I always find it weird and I mentioned this about the Ushiromiya themselves. I know they hate each other’s guts but they’re still siblings. The furniture excuses are always something like “it’s been decided/fate/whatever” in addition to cause “I’m furniture.” After six games the furniture set up is so tired that here is the part where I think R07 and Featherine’s about writing “200 pages to explain a point” is similar and goes to extreme.* I get it* I think the point in their relationship and the interpretations have been exposed enough. All of this George being the culprit is part of rather stupid red-herrings (like many) that it’s better to take the most important clues and the rest being filtered out. Here is where the character growth takes precedence over the mystery part of the story and work as red-herrings for those easy to trick. For the detective these are fillers after he already got what he needed. For a “reader/fan” this is entertainment, well assuming that it’s that amusing.

    You’re probably thinking again why I dislike these parts of the story? That’s only natural. It’s clear actually. They only serve to embellish the story and the characters but do little for the mystery and could be considered to be red-herrings for most part. Here is the conflict between acting as Detective or acting as another Reader collide, which not everyone has to deal with but then again this could be hardly called a “game” as the author mentions if it was that way, so I usually have two answers to most questions in Umineko. Do people want to hear my answers as a “reader/fan” or do they want to hear mine as this logical entity known as the “detective”.
    IMO Battler worked too much on the story and not much on the mystery itself. Was he even trying to show a proper mystery or simply trying to protect Beatrice with his “love” and “their” game? This is an “answer arc” but how much exactly is truth or relevant? 30%, 50%, 90%? I wouldn’t completely believe everything from DAWN’s truth, I have to be careful on what I pick up on. I’m with Featherine on this one and understand that Battler is unfit to be an “observer/reader” this time. He is far too *biased*, even more as you mentioned that he has gone “insane” with love and has turned even more irrational than I wanted him to.

    I go back to DAWN being drastic about its redundancy. Here is where reason why some of these scenes are rather redundant/pointless such as George’s. Because “most hints and points have already been given and processed.” I assume that many readers also already figured them out too and those who didn’t finally “get it” after 200 pages aka DAWN. This is one of the reasons why EP6 was anticlimactic in certain parts and why many times I already knew what was coming before they even mentioned them and was itching for the story to touch more pressing matters. It shouldn’t take “Hachijo” to write 200 pages to prove a point. DAWN does give hints but it’s majorly redundant.

    – Beatrice is next

    • I admit I was more on the confrontational side with my answer this time but this really wasn’t meant to attack you but I wanted to have a clearer idea where our interpretations diverge.
      After all if I wouldn’t appreciated your approach I most likely wouldn’t comment with so long answer to all you thoughts. :)
      Actually I like your unshaken stance of tracking all the factual evidences which result in those meticulous collections of details in your in-depth posts as this always gives me much food for thoughts. Still I often take a broader approach to working with the material and also take many analyzing gamer opinions to heart.
      Still keep up what you are doing… just accept that I have a different style.

      But actually thats what I love about this games. It really is structured the way that you have to find you own personal stance and strategy to tackle it and that why there are so many interesting interpretation and discussion about it on the web.
      With the core arcs the story really gave you a reason to doubt the more straight forward (“factual”) answer provided and that in itself seem like a huge success to me because it really give meaning to all this stuff he wrote in his “Anti-Fantasy vs. Anti-Mystery” essay. At first I was like “Well okaaaaay… who would really wand to go Anti-Mystery? Its rant about self-containment problem in the “perfect riddle” idea makes sense but still…. Its the wrong/evil side after all and the loser option”. But he has evolved this idea over the time and in the end the concept makes sense but not labeled as Anti-Mystery or Pro-Fantasy.
      Magic has been deconstructed for the most part by now. There simply is no reason to really believe witches can kill people with magic anymore for anyone not matter how naive. The last wedge to kill this was the confirmation that all magic has to obey reality so in the end it isn’t able to be “real magic”. So it is and always will be a trick in context of murders. Thats also why I wouldn’t say I was dragged to the Pro-Fantasy side for my reasoning. I don’t really support Fantasy theories here.
      But I still keep my stance that the idea of this conflict keeps relevant. After all I’d call the classic “Anti – Anti” conflict from the question arcs dead by now. But as I stated before I always saw this as a very specific interpretation of a more abstract idea of Rationality vs. “Emotionality” (the latter for the lack of a more comprehensive term for all this stuff he pits against rationality).
      And I also mentioned before how its really easy to see how Ryu07 really wants every reader to fight this internal struggle by e.g. portraying half his story as unfactual genre-busting “nonsense” and also deconstructing detective tropes (though characters like Erika) and turn them evil.
      The consequence is IMO that you actually get a reason to seriously DOUBT that *only* rationality based path. But I also don’t equal this to supporting Pro-Fantasy anymore as I said.

      So we agree that we mutual disagree on your way to reach the goals.
      I guess the real question is: Do we really have the same definition for “the mystery” that has to be solved in Umineko?
      Comparing your answer for EP6 I would summaries that in how “your mystery” is to find the culprit and/or deciding how the murder were commit ed realistically just like a detective.
      “My mystery” is more about understanding the underlying message of the story as a whole (incl. the meaning of the major themes of the fantasy stuff) as I suppose the solution will emerge from this.

      So whats my point to back this up?
      Well actually there a soooo many points where the tale goes of the rail and deals with stuff that is totally irrelevant to the actual murder cases to provide stuff like philosophical conflicts etc. though magic. To simply ignore like 50% of the story as distracting noise with no practical use would seriously question the quality of the novels as a whole and render a big chunk as “filler” the author had better left out. I don’t buy this. A mystery author doesn’t write a mystery half the time and nonsense the other half just to bore and annoy its readers while still talking about needed trust in of the readers in the same stories. Their is a limit to hypocrisy in story concepts and any other has to uphold a reputation. Especially after such a well constructed story like Higurashi where there was deeper meaning you wouldn’t even have imagined in the most ridiculous, side-tracking or “bland” scenes. I just wouldn’t except that *everything* fantasy is just red herrings and misdirection after that.

      Also has any of those hardliner Anti-Fantasy / “Pro-Mystery” approaches of any character ingame ever worked in the tale?
      Battler *only* had his revelation after switching sides and kind of playing the game from the other side as well. And isn’t chessboard thinking all about this very concept?
      Also EP5 actually PROOFED in red that most possible ill-mannered motives for Beatos game from EP1-4 were wrong so is there really any reason to doubt that there is a important message she wanted to convey though all her magical stuff which is important to Battlers progress towards the solution?
      Yeah she is really unintuitive about this but well “she really is a strange child” was said after all.

      But I see where you are coming from. There is no proof that Battler really succeeded this way to find a conclusive answer in EP5 and the story also never stated IF Beato really wanted to help Battler at all and why.
      The factual evidences are always the done-to-earth and safe, fundamental backbone to the story so you cannot go wrong with this. You really always have to option to play it safe and won’t go wrong with it. I only wonder if you wouldn’t end with the “not enough information” problem in the end with such a narrow focus.
      EP5 was very heavy on the notion that pure “fact” based detective work without heart only leads to either a dead end or a “bad end”. :(

      So you were wondering if I sway from the position of a detective too much and perhaps that a good why to see it as I may not really take the detective position to fight this battle … but calling me observer for it? That doesn’t seem right.
      A observer is passive about the whole stuff while I also fight with or against you or others in a variation of those metaphorical color battles to find meaning in the game.
      Perhaps I’m actually more a puzzle-player then the detective. I just try to find a place for all the aspect in the story to fit into the greater picture and just deny everything which provides a clear contradiction to absolute truth or a any realistic answer.

      Perhaps better to put it this way: You seem a lot like Erika (minus all the jackassery … so don’t take it as a insult, its definitively not meant to) for going this very meticulous way of only building a factual basis from absolute trustworthy stuff.
      I think I’m more the Virgilia (minus the cryptic talk and wisecracking) for going to a more neutral place between the extremes to find moral and meaning in the greater setup.
      And if “accepting” fantasy stuff for some important deeper intention instead of ignoring it is part of the deal …. well so be it. And wasn’t this also exactly what Virgilia was lecturing Beato about…. How she failed to reach her goal (get a message across?) by scaring Battler away from the game though to much pressure on him so he started treating all she said as bullshit.
      I think fantasy can be analyzed too to advance the solution but that doesn’t make the those theories unrealistic or .

      About the magic:
      I’m very surprised you take such a hardliner approach to the interpretation of magic after all the world-building around this topic. Yes you are right how a large part of this is to drag the illusion and delusions out of the cat box but it should be obvious by now how all this magical stuff also symbolizes the feelings/problems in peoples hearts and I don’t see why to ignore this.
      I also admit that Maria *is* potentially dangerous to the people on the island even if she may neither intent nor realize this in her twisted world view and/or naivety. After all there was an obvious reason to put a symbolic black king from chess on her head which never ever gets even mentioned by anyone even if its such a striking part of her outfit.
      But still the only think I see in this scene is the author making Erika a jackass once again raping the metaphorical dog by tearing apart Marias world view. After all I’d call it a waste as she may realize parts of the ideology of Marias magic but without a heart she will never understand the desire to do so as she won’t have a concept of what childish dreams are about (especially for Maria).
      Also their was little to gain from this as she already deconstructed Natsuhis delusions about magic in EP5 so she should already “get it”.
      In the end you are just defending Erikas reason to do this which all the other characters ingame condemn afterwards.

      But that wasn’t my point. I was saying how the much more interesting part of this fight which also seem to give much more usable new ideas is the Golden Truth used. And thats because its a novum how it’s used to provide an Pro-Fantasy justification with should make us very skeptical about its (the whole Golden Truth idea) worth and intention. After all no matter how it works its called “truth” after all.
      So my take on this is: Analyzing this is more useful to advance the solution as it would clarify what was going on in the final battle of EP5 (behind the scenes).

      Maria and the Rose:
      Yeah it often read how “the rose” may just represent Marias desire to be loved by her mother but does this make so much sense anyways? Marias is in her nativity mode most of the time when she is searching for her rose so I don’t buy that she is really consciously trying to “lure” her mother back to get a proof of her love and I see even less how she could intentionally stay there to “create witch darkness” to harm others.
      Her way of “forcing” Rosa out in EP3 makes it even harder to defend the “I want to see if my mommy comes back and loves me” interpretation. There is some importance to the rose itself I guess which only Marias sees / understands / believes in. I’m still pondering if we really get it.

      You are right that her action really serve the advancement of the plot so you may make a point that Maria got intentionally “placed” in the garden by the GM to make her story work out the same way she claims Beato has placed Piece-Beato in EP2 with a special effect on the story. But I think the story has to be self-consistent in the action of every character on the board level so I like to ignore that.
      Still as you stated that “event” in the rose garden is almost like a must-have for the story no matter how you change the variables. That really fascinating.

      The dreaded George scene ^^
      As you should have realized by my longer intro here is the point my interpretation diverge from yours.
      A commented before how I don’t like how it’s dragging either but do you really think this scene is adding *absolutely* nothing to the story?
      And Ryu07 even lampshaded it for its slooooow and annoying nature though Anges commentary later on. So come on, which author consciously writes a bad scene and then dissing himself for how bad it is without ulterior motives.
      Besides he takes this kind for unintuitive way to get a message across all the time.
      So what this comes down to is the question if you still want to trust Ryu07 writing and conceptionalizing abilities?
      Well I wouldn’t blame you for questioning it as actually a lot of fans did this for what he wrote in EP6 (and also EP7 for different reasons). Most accuses go against his seemingly sidetracking story parts which serve no purpose. But mostly of this arguments also assume they already know where everything is going and that it will be awful before they even read EP8 (mostly in the ways of “the sky is falling!” and “RUINED FOREVER” argumentation).
      I for myself decided to trust him as he even puts so much subtext in the games which almost implores you “yeah this is weird but trust me or else this whole ‘game’ has no meaning anyways”.

      Also why are you so opposed to the idea that Battler is actually doing a good job with providing hint and those romantic / fantasy scene ARE important factors to this? After all the logic error and everything else about this started far far later in the story and also had nothing to do with the very idea of providing more characterization.

      Besides while it may be boring you cannot really call it redundant. Actually George talk reveals much about his character which was never touched before.
      Til now he had exactly 2 modes for George:
      Mode1: “I’m everybodys mothers dream of a son”… intelligent, soft-spoken, peaceful, understanding, planning mindset and also lame and boring for 99% of the readers ^^
      Mode2: Kung-Fu-Master with limitless determination and a strong desire to oppose others and strive for his personal goals…. powerful but controlled, a bit questionable in morality but still planing and very strong-minded

      But after all this background in EP6 I just assume that a big part of this is just a mask for him or at least was. Its revealed how he was driven (maybe still is) by much negativity which doesn’t life up to his “heroic” / nice guy image he tried to project and how he was a really weak-minded person before. It also reveals how George was more like Shannons “2nd option” and George wanted to kind of butt in on this so everything started with a lie if you think about it.
      It also goes so over the top with their 30+ year plan of togetherness of perfect life with reveals that he may not be “the man with the plan” but just a wide eye idealist or a dreamer.
      So whats the point you may ask? This character is so unimportant to the murders that nobody cares! I even assume thats why you really want to ignore this stuff so much. But that where I disagree with you.

      And as I stated before this scene also shows how much influence and control Shannon had over this development towards the engagement. Their is a reason I mentioned Tommy from Higurashi. After all this characterization leave much more room for an ironical role as a victim after unintentional helping in the real crime without noticing and later getting backstabbed for it. See the story even gave him a shout-out t-shirt to Tommy (and you know how few alternative outfits sprite “just for fun” are contained in this games). I simple don’t believe in chance for stuff like this.

      But looking more at the kids in general: To dismiss their important to the mystery seem like a grave mistake to me.
      EP6 put heavy emphasis on almost only the children problems leading to those conflicts and the trials.
      EP4 also put heavy emphasis on the children and also has a trial with different goal but similar themes.
      Even EP1 tea party puts only the children in the spotlight when everything about the ‘game’ even started (even if this choice of characters has not logical connection to the way the story was told before).
      Also Battlers ‘sin’ is confirmed in red to have a signification connection to the murders. Furthermore most theories about his sin revolve around a forgotten promise or other similar “minor” misstep which for the most part only makes sense as a ‘sin’ towards the other kids as his direct family problems were ruled out and there were next to no hints about Battler having conflict etc. towards any other adult member of the big family (yeah that last bit is Knox argumentation ^^).
      So my bet is on how the kids problems take center stage in the resolution of the machinery of fate that lead up to the murders.

      Last but not least: For your last comments about Battlers incompetence as GM I have to seriously ask if you actually think that Battler tries to bullshit everybody by putting a lot of irrelevant and redundant stuff into his tale and embellish a story without realizing he has to win a game and show believable that he understood the rules? Doesn’t that completely invalidate his revaluation in EP5 enabling him to win back then?
      Seeing you criticize Battlers way of construction the story more and more I really wonder if you consider EP6 a “evil distraction” episode. Something like this simply shouldn’t exist as non of the When They Cry games ever did this to this extent – especially not the answer arcs. After all EP5-8 are meant to give answer and I cannot imagine the ratio of hints to traps is fluctuating soooo heavily that something like half a story is unusable.
      So I question you: Aren’t you a bit too paranoid to fall into traps to outright strike all this “story” as nonsense.
      If you want my guess of a percentage of useful material. It guess is like 70-80% of the story but only if you know how to decode the important stuff (as I suspect that’s true for every game). Without “getting it” I guess its really more like 30-50%.

  3. @ Digdri
    Before anything, interesting views and read as usual.

    On Beato and Conflicting truths in Umineko and perpetual check.

    On Beato
    Now I’ll turn it around and ask a similar question. Turn the chessboard over. Can you say that you aren’t connecting parts where they don’t necessarily go? I see that you’re tackling this part as very very pro-fantasy. I wasn’t expecting you to be that much in favor of it. Again I’d have to ask if you’re either pro or against it and is DAWN alone responsible for it? And is this believe going to drastically change by the next EP?

    Interesting view. You’ve taken a lot of liberties here with fantasy though. As a person of Logic normally I’d be forced to dismiss the whole claim as too irrational to consider. However, I also *realize* the author’s intent this whole time. Clearly, if there would be no possible way for magic or Beatrice to even exist the whole magic side would be pointless. Still could be partially true but this could still be a metaphor by the author to justify the existence of magic later on the story.

    This Beatrice’s mother I take it it’s supposedly to be born from a relationship between Kinzo and Beatrice’s mother. Was this mother “normal” like any human? Since your theory includes a human version it escapes me if you mean a human person then this person died and that Kinzo took care of the child or that magically Kinzo did put that person life on the homunculus and so a “new” Beatrice was reborn. No, I take it you mean that the new Beatrice is the one who tried to “get away” and was put on a homunculus or a similar scenario. The Beato you’re referring to it’s the one that died on 1967. As the red says:

    “ [In the past,] those two actually had a conversation like that in this place (Those two refers to Kinzo and Human Beatrice.) and “ This is the world of 1967”

    This proves that Beatrice had a conversation like that with Kinzo and I can’t deny that at some point they did meet. After the new Beatrice died in an accident there was no longer a human version of herself in the world so she wandered off until the family conference started. Though hard to believe for the Logic side, it is consistent with the story.

    “ In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human.”
    “She is definitely dead (Used by Beatrice. She is referring to her human self.)”
    Past tense implying she no longer is. Supported by the fact that it’s nearly impossible for Beatrice to be even alive without any help and the red truth stating that she is dead. Beatrice’s life as a human ended there. Interesting fact, subtracting from the current time the murders take place and the day human Beatrice died 1986 – 1967 = 19. It fits with what the game tells you later on. And here is where your following reasoning partially matches with mine but you take the fantasy side of the story and go on a different direction. From this point, it’s no longer the backstory about Beatrice but it adds too many fantasy elements.

    I liked how logically you explained SKanon’s relationship with the “Witch”. I cannot accept the existence of SKannon because it goes against total common sense and indicates characters in the story being plain stupid to not realize it. I’ll acknowledge that point in that “truth” you’re presenting because it’s the same as I mentioned over and over about being a pathological problem.

    “Beatrice we see is but an illusion of those around her who belief in her.” Reason why the detective never sees her and only Meta version of as the Witch of Truth is able to fight her as a way to match both parallel universe thus deny her existence. Let’s not forget that the Witch only appears before are characters with high levels of POV. My logical claim is still consistent with the truth you present.

    Later the part where Kumasawa/Genji are greatly involve with Beatrice/etc. This theory relies heavily on the characters keeping quiet about secrets to not mention everyone putting their own lives in danger. The servants keeping quiet about questionable things matches up with EP1-EP5 but still highly questionable how people could go that far. This simply baffles me how reckless, irrational, and simple they can be. Put in simple words, “are they all crazy?” Normal people don’t do that. Such actions go against common sense. Unfortunately it STILL falls in the category of “it’s possible because it simply CAN BE.” Also this is part where you’re making big assumptions such as Kumasawa taking care of the supposed “newborn” Beatrice. At most Genji knew the place existed but it’s never mentioned those two interacted with her a long time or ever met her directly in the first place. For all we know they could be lying same as Genji always does. Your truth about the legend/honoring still holds if I completely disregard what I mentioned.

    Moving on you also didn’t to explain the gold as you mentioned you couldn’t really. The red says that the gold belong to no other than Beatrice so Kinzo could only has gotten it from her or got her approval. This new Beatrice couldn’t possibly have given Kinzo the Gold as you mentioned because she wouldn’t remember any of it, well assuming all this homunculus deal is even possible. The part where it’s difficult to connect the gold to Kinzo and Beatrice later on is consistent and I agree so it could’ve only been done prior to that. Even more the claim that Kinzo used his magic to make another Beatrice is illogical from the mystery standpoint. If we believe that then it’s not that difficult to mistaking belief that Kanon and Shannon are not real humans (Another claim that I don’t support) but created by Kinzo himself, after you’ve have already accepted Kinzo’s magic from the start. Also I’d like to say that I’m with the you can’t put it past grandfather so I accept humanly possible outrageous claims about him as possible. That said, here is where your reasoning weaken because you accept only certain elements of magic but deny the rest and don’t necessary pay great attention to the killings part of the mystery later. You present the change between Beatrice which was interesting but don’t go farther to explain how is she actually related to the killings. It sounded as though you were pinning Kanon/Shanon as the culprit the whole time and even making room for an actual person named Beatrice or worse a Witch to exists. Following this line of reasoning you’re getting closer and closer to accepting magic. All these theories *are* enlightenment and sound but you might be taking these claims *too literally* and going overboard with the metaphors (though I think your abilities on it are superb) which DAWN is full of. You also have to consider the possibility that, isn’t it possible that you’re trying to put some pieces in the puzzle even if forcefully?

    The theory (prior to the family conference) you’re proposing deals the existence of magic and accepting the existence of a Witch. While it certainly has its points it disregards the siblings as possible culprits. Actually, I’m most surprised you didn’t mention them here since in my 8th move you had interesting thoughts to match my logical claims of my own theories of the possible culprits. The claim that furniture’s “Beatrice” is are delusions is logical. This matches up with my END claim that Natsuhi was highly stressed out and bordering delusional. I can’t possibly believe that a “normal” grown up person could see/interact with a Witch, even less when it was denied by the Red truth. This I agree. The “Witch” is a result of the legends and hints provided by the story. It is used as a way to justify the existence of an X person who doesn’t exist in reality. That’s a truth from the Logic side. This ends Beatrice’s theory. Now Battler. I’d put his character in one sentence to make greater sense of the situation from my perspective.

    – “Battler is an irrational person pretending to be rational”

    He cheats and lies to himself when it’s convenient and doesn’t accept the truth even it’s on his face the whole time. Reason why he’s toyed so easily. From my point of view, Battler is predictable for most part unless he’s being reckless and unfit to be a Witch’s opponent because of it. The reason why he wins and all is because “it’ll be far too boring and have a super detective as lead, not to mention everyone loves the “good guy” no matter how incompetent he is”, thus why we have Battler. It took 5 Tales to get where I already got, which I have to say I agreed with Bern in END about her comment about Battler being incompetent. “The culprit is human. There’s no need to doubt. There’s a good solution to the mystery.” So you suppose you could say that I only get Battler in *theory* because I can’t relate to his irrationality at all. Battler screwing around Valentine/etc is pointless for reasoning but it is *entertaining* for the story.

    Here once again there’s a huge difference between being interested in Umineko for different reasons. I’ve seen fans that from EP1-+EP4 still believe that a Witch did it and magic is real regardless of the evidence, hinting or contradictions. This is what I refer to cases in which they only are in it for the “thrill of the story” disregarding the role of making sense of it and thinking farther. The cheese problem may apply here. On the other hand, we have the “mystery side” who appreciates the mystery the author gave us and try to make sense of things and “take a stand” and stick with it. Both are fine depending on what catches the person interest but if I’d to choose then I’d choose the people who have taken R07’s as a “game” like he wished for it and got the most out of it. This is a question that apply to the When they Cry series and that people hardly think about and I mean it in the general sense. Are people (fans) in for the story? Or are they for the mystery? Are they capable of doing both?

    I’d have to question where exactly you’re standing in this mystery by now it should be clear where I stand. I am – but Logic. I am Mystery. It goes beyond simply denying the existence of magic with small bombs but it proposes logical truths to approach the mystery. Illogical and fillers parts of the mystery are better sorted out and be given a more plausible explanation, in case it becomes impossible because certain existence of magic *must* exist in the mystery it must be properly dealt with and given a logical and fitting explanation so everything fits perfectly with the mystery.

    In END your position was similar to mine (I believed to the case) but I can’t help but noticing you’re being a bit swayed by DAWN’s debatable Battler’s truth, someone who was acting out and presenting a Mystery that simply it could’ve been biased after he himself found the truth. Why? Because he doesn’t wish for Erika to solve it because he has grown to attached to this fantasy world without knowing. Have you considered this? That the readers are supposed to have already figured out the riddle and Battler’s game is not the real truth but only small parts of it. His “truth” is still opened to interpretation to both the Logical and Fantasy side. We both may be focusing on the not-so-relevant parts and disregarding the irrelevant as relevant. That’s also a possibly that applies for both sides.

    Let’s go back to the cheese problem to finish up and explain this whole point of contradicting approaches to solve a problem with a slight difference I created.

    Let’s take it from the last part. I already knew the answer to the problem by making logical assumptions and I wasn’t in the need of knowing all of big problems and mathematical theories to come up with a solution. I concluded that it was less than 4 pieces because the problem would be pointless and irrational to be other way around it. I concluded that it was 3 pieces because the answer to these problems is usually -1 to the total numbers, also this is mentioned by Erika in a different and supposedly *unrelated* problem also. Lastly, I knew it was “1” without even having to think much. Why is it so? Because I knew that was the most “irrational” solution to the problem. I knew the most outrageous number and solution to such problem would be the least possible number not being zero, “1”. No one would normally think of that as being as right answer because it’s difficult to believe such number could work but I still assumed it was still *possible* because though an outrageous answer it could still be a possible solution to such problem. So my answer looking at the picture would’ve been 3 without a doubt because that should be the most logical solution possible. On the other hand, I also concluded it was “1” because the pic wasn’t shown, therefore I also knew the answer was “1”.

    Here is where I stop and explain. In not a single moment not even Battler, Erika or the rest ever stopped and ask that most crucial question. The siblings thought the whole time it was a regular cheese so the answer was “three” meanwhile, Battler assumed the cheese had no definite shape and the answer could’ve been only one otherwise the problem would be redundant. Here is where neither of their reasoning matched mine. Instead of giving away my answer as soon as I’d be asked that question I’d have come up with the answer(s) and THEN moments later change it into a question (I’ll put it in a Higurashi-ish way)

    “This is not a real question. I have two answers but you only seek for one. This is not a real question. The answers contradict one another. This is not a real question. One is logical and the other one is illogical. This is still not a real question. According to this erroneous question both my answers can be right or wrong or right and wrong. This is still not a real question. In the end there can only be one. This still not a real question. As a result, this is still not real question.”

    See what I mean? The difference is that I’d ask what neither of sides didn’t care for. Both of them arbitrarily decided it (even Featherine) either had or had no shape but not a single one stopped and *question* the *problem*, not the “cheese problem” but the “problem itself” presented by the author and considered what the possible answer the author had wanted and how their answers would be viewed if the picture was shown. I already knew the answer but my final decision differed from both groups because I stopped, thought, and proceeded to ask. Instead of answering the question I’d have to request the one with the book to be clearer, and in case he couldn’t do it I’d force to give both of them whether right or wrong.

    – And so we go back to the conflicting truths and approaches and how the truth I may present may be right yet believed to be wrong and vice versa.

    “Hey, I have the answer” but *I don’t think this is answer you really want* because “This is still not a real question.”, thus this is probably not a “real” answer unless you wish for it. If you don’t believe in it then it certainly cannot be a real answer.

    This is basically the conflict approaches to a problem. Both sides think they’re right though they may be or not. Both sides have different truths to the mystery. One can be truer than the other one at times but later the table may be turned. This is the last part where I say to the opposing side once again, “I don’t think this is answer you really want .” “What if I say it’s “1” but the person with the picture showed me the image a second later? What if I said “3” and he said there really wasn’t any picture in it? Would that make us right or wrong? “this is not a real question” may sound as a way to escape a problem because there is no “real solution” but in the case I presented it involves the thinker’s reasoning both solutions out but not directly showing what answer he came up with because it really wasn’t a “real” question, thus neither answer could be 100% real until it becomes a real question meaning when the final truth is revealed or the one receiving the answer acknowledges this answer as *truth*. Logic approach Fantasy approach or in general opposite approaches are similar to these both possible solutions. Whether this solution is actually the question being asked changes everything completely. Theories and guesses are but one possible solution to the problem in which one will eventually win when the cat box is finally opened. The truths co-existing are possible because of the closed circle after all.

    So there you have it, the whole different approaches Logic vs Fantasy and different interpretations among fans, the reader vs detective views and how people can be right or wrong depending on different approaches plus views the opposing sides have. Also how we end up reaching a “perpetual check” by denying each others’ claims when we are on opposite sides and our truths start to differ.

    How this mystery once again is more complex than meets the eye never ceases to amaze the fans and theory crafters. As you mentioned everything started with monsters some characters going over 9000. Now, we’re moving on to having intellectual discussions involving cheese as a metaphors to explain these discussions where different reasoning and truths collide over and over and reaching a perpetual check for the same reasons that neither side can fully agree with the other one. It’s supposed logical. It’s not always logical. A Witch exists. It actually doesn’t. There’s a better answer.

    Clever, complicated, amusing and not something everyone can grasp. This is the real reason why Ryukishi07’s game boards are truly fascinating.

    • So I thank to you took the time to analyze and comment on my theory even if its in opposition to your style of reasoning.

      “Can you say that you aren’t connecting parts where they don’t necessarily go?”
      Obviously I cannot. Thats after all the big problem of the whole magical part of the story. We need to make sense out of it but for the most part its metaphors and symbolism with rarely as just one defining interpretation.
      I also realize how one of the common tricks in mystery fiction is to make you connect the wrong dots. Remember I even commented about it before…. that was this stuff with the equation “1+1+1+1=4” and how the problem can be to add them up in the first place while every other part of it is correct.
      But I was for the most part careful and didn’t just random pick fantasy element to find answer but looked how they fit into the big themes etc.

      “You also have to consider the possibility that, isn’t it possible that you’re trying to put some pieces in the puzzle even if forcefully?”
      Also always a possible problem. But still the real question is if it contradicts anything about absolute facts and your goals. Until we have the final answer of all games all “workable” theories without contradictions are still valid claims. Actually they are like the many multiple truths inside the cat box still not destroyed by contracting revelations. Or if you like it better with color they are all the blue statements which never get countered or made irrelevant / impossible for the solution.

      “I see that you’re tackling this part as very very pro-fantasy.”
      “You’ve taken a lot of liberties here with fantasy though. As a person of Logic normally I’d be forced to dismiss the whole claim as too irrational to consider. ”
      Well that actually the point where I don’t get you arguments. As I commented for the 1st part I don’t consider this approach pro-fantasy but perhaps we also have a problem in terminology.
      Here is my distinction for this:
      If the story tells you Rosa meets witch Beato and Beato works magic Rosa sees and I said this will definitively proof supernatural elements have an influence on the story…. That pro-fantasy!
      But if I take this scene as a metaphoric or otherwise warped representation of the real world this doesn’t violate common sense or reality. I can say the magic was an illusion or trick and the person wasn’t witch Beato but someone disguised as a witch but still a normal person or we can say Rosa met some completely different person but the narrator spread noise in the tale by substituting the real person by this fantasy witch. But still even if this constructs a realistic story there still is no reason to doubt that there was a worthwhile true information to this fantasy scene (e.g. Rosa meeting a person or Rosa *considering* the person she met a witch for some reason X)
      See that what I wouldn’t call pro-fantasy as there is no fantasy element in the final theory. It just doesn’t discard the fantasy as completely unusable information. That actually anti-fantasy as it is deconstructing magic to provide realism.

      Perhaps you misinterpreted some parts of my theory and in that case I apologize for providing such confusing train of thoughts. My intention was really to show you a theory with have absolutely no unrealistic or supernatural influence to it. (I address the confusion further down)

      Thats also why I don’t get how you call it unacceptable or irrational. You might not like the way I construct my theories based on fantasy scene and I admit I take some big assumptions or liberty in filling the gaps but even if someone would just any fact at random and put them together without any further thought. If he in this way could potentially construct a theory without contradictions or faults we both may not accept his way as a valid way to get to the answer but we couldn’t disproof it as a *possible* conclusion.

      If you really wish to claim this theory is unacceptable you have only one way and that the same as the game: you have to either find a inherent inconsistence in the reasoning or disproof the that its applyable to the story be providing contradicting objective facts (or at least assume believable inconsistency toward stuff like themes, characterization etc. to make it less strict ^^)

      “Again I’d have to ask if you’re either pro or against it and is DAWN alone responsible for it?”
      This theory is indeed build on DAWN but you also have to remember why I presented it in the first play. This was primary the idea to proof my point that the talk of those two fictional Beatos in DAWN should not be dismissed so easily as even if they are not part of reality the story can provide answer though this characters.
      My two answer distilled from it are as stated: The talk about their differences is meant to deconstruct the dual nature of the Beato story complex which essential consists on the one side of a legend with people experience though superstition / delusion / vivid imaginary / deceit through others. On the other side it represents one or multiple REAL persons important to the back story.
      The 2nd answer was how GM Battlers relation to Chick Beato was a parallelism to Kinzo and his “Beatrice” so EP6 is expanding on the background story value explained in EP3.
      Everything else was just providing consistency to this two approaches.
      Thats also why the idea gets really muddy and doesn’t deal with the adult and the final murders. The adult were never a big factor in EP6 so I didn’t explain much about this and you are essencially right in how Shannon or Kanon or SKanon as the sole answer to the whodunnit doesn’t work as he/she/whatever is still a single person and not a really strong one again up to 6 people to victimize brutally.

      Still if you take my idea of the dress vs. suits Beato (bomb vs. culprit) and take it to the logical extreme you could still make a consistent theory if you claim that Beato was really “only” the delusion in peoples mind which made them so insane to commit murder and the bomb which wiped all those which didn’t get killed by the human culprit(s) of the face of earth.
      This is still consistent with the whole “Beato made sure nobody survived” etc. while the real culprit may not have anything to do with my theory of Shannon/Kanon or Shannon having delusions about Beatrice even if the may effect the superstition which effect the events of the conference.
      Or to put it the simplest: The most evil effect of the SKanon theories is how she doesn’t need to be involve in the solution of all the murders at all. Just by existing this way the person count on the island would drop and make room for another person X with could murder most of the people the same why the dead Kinzo idea worked. So even if SKanon doesn’t have *any* evil intents she would indirectly support the murder via the rules of the meta game. I know its really insane reasoning here but still thats the way this strange tale can be turned into 100 weird implications.

      So to clarify the homunculus part a bit more focused explanation:
      The story tells us:
      – Beatrice lived on the island but died (no idea why)
      – Her soul was “haunting” the island
      – Kinzo put this soul into a homunculus which made this a new Beatrice
      – This Beatrice met Rosa causing her death
      – She again wander the island as a ghost
      – Later Shannon / Kanon “noticed” her and all the stuff from EP2 happend (after the portrait was created)

      So here again is my non-fantasy-version with more structure:
      – The 1st Beatrice on the island was Kinzos lover and was the connection to the gold. A normal woman and most likely a foreigner (if Battlers description of the portrait is even remotely reliable) who fueled Kinzo europhilia.
      – She died and we don’t get to know more about her but obviously now Kinzo had the power over the gold
      – The wandering soul is just embellishing fantasy nonsense but we still can assume 3 interpretations:
      1) the wandering soul is a analogy to the proto-legend of the fishermen about the ghosts on the island (similarities: bound to the island and formless)
      2) the “transfer” of souls can be associated with the idea of Beatrice name transfer (name = title) which is consistent which the red you quoted about how teen Rosas dialog with Beatrice really happened and this dialog revels who others call her Beatrice even if she doesn’t understand why (most likely Kinzo wished so)
      3) the wandering formless Beatrice could just retro-fit her legend about wander / formless / butterfly-swarm (theorized about by the superstitious servants later on) into her origin story

      So now the homuculus part in detail.
      Kinzo claimed he put the soul into this. A homuculus is often depicted in fantasy as a humaniod monster but actually it literally just means “little human” and only refers to a wide variety of small model or representation of a human.
      So I take the liberty and interpret this “putting a soul into a small human” as conceiving a child (also consider the imagery and wording of the new born chick Beato in EP6). That what this person is in may theory. She is just a normal human girl. Kinzos daughter which he also refers to as Beatrice because well…. “Oh Beatriiiiiiice, why have you forsaken meeeeee?” (he is the kind of guy to take losing the love of his live very hard). So as you called it he may treat her as a reborn human and “Replacement Goldfish” to bear the pain or confuse her with the 1st Beatrice when she is older in his starting insanity for his lost lover (after all IIRC Rosa mentioned how she looked like the one on the portrait, so most likely both Beatrice really look similar as children usually tend to toward their parents). As the 2nd Beatrice never understood the legend and the witch stuff other confronted her with I assume she doesn’t remember about her mother or never really met her / get told about her.
      The whole idea of SKanons delusion (or a shared idea of two individual if you absolutely need to kill this concept for the theory to work for you) strictly has nothing to do with both of the real Beatrices. It may just be the evolution of all the superstition and mythos provides from many sources to create a Sakutarou like entity to cope with their problems.

      “You present the change between Beatrice which was interesting but don’t go farther to explain how is she actually related to the killings. It sounded as though you were pinning Kanon/Shanon as the culprit the whole time and even making room for an actual person named Beatrice or worse a Witch to exists. Following this line of reasoning you’re getting closer and closer to accepting magic.”
      I think a cleared up by now that I neither wanted to present magic in my theory nor did it really intent to solve the idea of killing but just worked on the interpretation and origin of Beato themes in different concepts of meta / fantasy scenes. I even stated how this theory doesn’t even need to pinpoint Shannon/Kanon as this just exist

      But I’m really astonished how in-depth you already found the fault of the theory. Really good reasoning.
      For Kumasawas relation to 2nd Beatrice I made a lot of assumptions. But I base this one the analysis of 2 different fantasy scenes. In EP6 we get Kumasawa who actually cares for ChickBeato when Kinzo was angry about her (analogy to the life of 2nd Beatrice as the whole theory goes) and we get the scene of EP3 at the beginning where Virgilia teaches some Beatrice in a place assumed to be Kuwadorian by many theorys (most likely because the anime made it look that way).

      Skanon the 3rd try:
      “I cannot accept the existence of SKannon because it goes against total common sense and indicates characters in the story being plain stupid to not realize it.”
      First things first: You cannot call people stupid for a story that may get alter on the meta level. Thats like people not realizing how the don’t really encounter a living Kinzo when every scene about him was by definition magical (or flashback).
      Ok and then: I already stated it and I state it again. The SKannon theory is annoying and in some way really silly but it simply isn’t true you can call it illogical to consider this approach. As I already explained there is enough potential foreshadowing in all stories to not make it an asspull later and disproofing it becomes a real problem. Thats exactly the reason WHY I hate it.
      Its not like people didn’t try to put it to rest forever but guess what…. it doesn’t f*** work. The idea is so simply. You just have to find any remotely *reliable* scene in the story where both are present at the same time and place.A dare you to find one!
      The problem is reliability. The scenes has to
      a) not contain outright witch distortion (Kinzo, Beato, demons, magic weapons etc.
      b) it doesn’t count if both a alone without observer
      c) it is not trustworthy if they are ONLY in the presence of those people which already uphold the “Kinzo is alive” conspiracy
      d) it is also not trustworthy as 2nd handed information from people which he have good reasons to lie or when only those people are shown with them (making it another potential storytelling illusion)

      If you want to find any scene where Battler really sees both of them as reliable narrator you won’t find it. There was someone who pointed out once how Rosa met both in a scene at the start of EP2 with isn’t outright fantasy but well… I guess I don’t have to start about her reliability in EP2. :(
      My only hope still is the end of EP6 where they kill Erika with a clearly stated person count on the island. But that scene is already quite incomprehensible because it sounds like a paradoxical truth (which the translator actually explained as an “untranslatable way to count in Japanese” and may make sense but even in the Japanese version and meaning the don’t get it either).
      And to make it even worse I heard EP7 also is toying with SKanon without giving clarification.
      You have to admit that this story is constructed to support it to the very end as a cat box. You simply cannot “accidentally” write such a silly theory into your story consistently. Its just like the “Kinzo is dead” theory 2.0
      How this makes the solution really lame and silly is a complete different matter.

      That really a clever thought about the cheese. It indeed fits the cat box and this even fit the original interpretation of Schrödingers thought experiment in the scientific way as IIRC one conclusion was that the two/multiple states of the cat exactly shift to a stable one because of the existence of the observer. I still consider this a bit stronger idea of how your perception actually could warp reality then just said “at first we didn’t know the inside and then we saw it which just changed your understanding”
      Also I don’t really know if you actually thought of this when also referring to Featherinnes role but their also is the term of “Schrödingers Gun” which actually meant how a interactive narrator (like a P&P RPG GM) intentionally leaves out major parts of “embellishing” descriptions to create those “cat boxes” for as much of his story as possible and so has the option to change the plot on the fly at every occasion to put the players “on the rail” he intended.
      A actually didn’t think to deeply about the alternative solution to the cheese riddle at all but if you jut considered ‘1’ for is lowest still possible option wasn’t that just guessing ;P

      About my stance:
      I already declared my general idea above about your question about story vs. mystery. I enjoy both and don’t see a contradiction in doing so. But when I write here I do it for the puzzle solving. I think a stated enough how you had a misconception about my goals. Still your approaches differ but I thats also the fun about discussing here.

      Also I think you give me to much credit. As I explained before I often base may theorizing on multiple other source of discussion which most likely already resulted in fairly polished ideas. So that that where I may have an advantage as I’m kind of play the theory Darwinist. Picking the strong ideas and puzzling them together to stuff nobody tried to mix before. :D
      But I’m actually really bad in coming up with conclusive mega theories (or to lazy to do so) and that why I like your single topic Tea Party style a lot more.

      As you always state how predictable EP6 was to you I’m really curious to see how you will explain Battlers final escape from the closed room. But had will have to wait for later summaries.

      • – On me going P L5. Well, that’s the down side of the whole chessmater/Xanatos Roulette/keikaku doori thinking. Somewhere there had to be a weak point. All of this is like the last ep of Death Note. That’s probably another way to describe the whole theory process of Umineko. Keikaku after keikaku after each EP.

        Interesting point. I acknowledge your the 2nd theory about Beatrices. I don’t see why not. I like it better, more logical and is closer to my reasoning. Also it’s more plausible regardless of my stance.

        Back to the whole DAWN. I may not have solved *all* the puzzles but I had a very solid idea of whydunnit, whodunnits parts prior to it. I more or less have already given out some answers by now in previous entries or in the Chess moves about what I think (not directly though) in previous arcs. *You know that I know that you know* type of thing here. and well DAWN comes along and well, you know the rest it screws up my logical reasoning and presents me with something else. Turns out that I thought I got it all down but the Witch side still has many tricks up its sleeve. Ryukishi got me again, then again when he doesn’t.

        Basically. I’d probably say that I’m in the same position as Erika was – I’m in disadvantageous position – from start to finish and that’s why I could relate to her in the Game. I came up with the same conclusions (also as Ange) but stopped at the very same place or they were denied in a similar manner. Very frustrating for the detective. I’m just way better dealing with theories, alibis, constructing, deconstructing, analyzing, looking for motives, and contradictions – basically doing the job of the detective. That’s why I liked the other EPs better.

        On another note, I was reading tonight what comes after this part and it’s well almost impossible to solve the next part logically lol. Really frustrating stuff. I did come up with some other different approaches but the rest was just.. so DAWN.

        • BTW “next part”…

          You mention you were curious what direction EP7 would take and if was more to your liking so I thought I’d mention you most likely will have a lot more fun with your style of analyzing the story. If DAWN really annoyed you for its lot of irritating Battler moves here is the redeeming story for you.

          As this will take at least another 6 month to really have the detailed translation I thought I give you a really vague idea of its approach (everything else is a huge clusterfuck of “What is this story really about and what can we believe” so I don’t have much more details I trust anyways)

          If you don’t like “spoilers” of any kind just ignore the rest of this here but I wouldn’t say you will learn so much more then you already know from thinking about EP6 final scene.

          —————————————————–

          So EP7 is really what we got promised by Bern. She try to present a consistent story to explain what was going on on the island to cause that murders. That seems to deal a lot with the past of individual character so I guess its flashbacks time for a big part. ^^ (Seems like a way to get the whydunnit to the right place for the story)
          I read some claimed the story is very straight forward and has even less “noise” then EP1 which sounds really helpful to get answers.

          So whats the catch? Doesn’t sound like a Umineko game at all? Well the bad news it this is Bern as GM we are talking about so you really get – as she already warned Featherinne about – her PoV without “love” and even if I don’t know whats going on the people claim she is kicking the dog a lot here. Sound like she is going EP5 “whydunnit for Natsuhi” mode again and things get very ugly at times. (So don’t wonder why their so much scythe wearing monstrous Bern fanarts out there right now ^^)
          This story also seem to play out in the most weird Fragment she could choose which is on the on side like a patchwork idea world (cat box?) and on the other side almost like calling “Umineko Rei” (in terms of “why is everything SOOOO different all of a sudden) and this world doesn’t even have that much impact on the flow of the story O_O. Fan also claim there is a VERY SERIOUS lack of red in it (and so logically also mostly devoid of blue^^). And some fans claimed they were eerily reminded of some of the more well know fan theories when reading it (the more strange ones I guess ^^)… so is this all *trollface trollface* “Got you!” ? Its not the final Episode after all. :(

          So there you have it. That is IMO really similar to my idea of solving the puzzle without the training wheels. Concluding from this most likely there will be many new clues but you will really wonder if Bern just has a problem with here “limited” PoV and made shit up and I guess even YOU will wonder if you actually *want* to believe this stuff but you will have a lot for “factual” stuff to ponder on and this kind of story is a totally different kind of mindfuckery because if this.
          Also seem about right what I claim for Ryu07 style of pitting Logic vs. Believing because essentially you may not have a way to proof stuff from EP7 so this all may be up to what you want to be true and how much of smaller “mistakes” you find in her reasoning. :D

          On the positive side the 2 new characters sound like really awesome additions to the story from the basic descriptions (unlike those 2 annoying jesters in EP6). Really likable persons and really funny and interesting stuff they do. BTW the idea of the blue guy was about right: He really is a Van Dine shout out but don’t expect Dlanor rule spam insanity here. This character worked totally different (he doesn’t even fight with colors much as you may have guessed from further above) and only similarity is how he bring a new different style of detective work to this tale (yes he is pro mystery and I guess you will really like this… also nothing like a piece Bern would through in at all O_o ).

  4. Sorry for the late reply I need 2 or 3 days to read the full post.
    the witch in the sealed room is more a concept that denies to go outside that place like the chain. You can call it with a name “Erika” but it just mean a concept here. Not that the actual Erika bite his fingers.

    It is curious. Maria in this episode really just appears in 2 scenes but both scenes are EPIC. About the candies, there are some scenes of people giving candies to Maria like the woman of episode 2 or in the airport scene of episode1.

    Maria and the rose. I know that the Rose is a symbol of something I don’t know yet. Do you noticed that Elder Beatrice does not have Rose in her hair? I wonder what would mean that.

    I saw some theories with George as the culprit after Episode 6 translation. But Being him the culprit would do umineko a 3rd rated mistery. Killing your family because they don’t accept your love? Isn’t that just a gore version of Romeo &Juliet?.

    Shakanon theory: I HATE that theory. It was funny at the start but it is getting really annoying. I do really tought that it have been completely denied after EP5 but they started using other arguments. Umineko can’t be so easy. I do not mind that in a moment of the history somebody misguided them somehow but they are different individuals. I would love to see Bern with her troll face or Lambda with her usual Did you believed in those stupid things denying it.

    I think I do not have nothing more to say. I don’t have nothing special about the other things really

  5. Pffff, I was writing my comment as I was reading this, but then my browser acted stupid and it stopped working, so I lost everything. But after reading your debate between Digdri and you, I was really impressed and it was pretty obvious (if it wasn’t already) to me that you are on different levels. What impressed me the most was your lateral thinking, seeing you got to those 2 answers for the cheese question but you then realized the true goal. I got to one, but I created “rules” of my own, which obviously stopped me from looking at the bigger picture.

    That said, my limitations tell me I can’t be as good as a detective as you are, but still I’ll work on my way. I don’t think that the whole magic images are something that must be destroyed. I think, that in a way, we can use those magic scenes as metaphors to see a bit deeper on characters and their thoughts. Perhaps these could give us possible motives. And I love analysing characters

    I have actually a theory, as silly as it may sound. Many think that the witch directly represents the human culprit that’s murdering everyone. However, what if this witch is, in fact covering up for the culprit so as not to harm Battler? I mean, knowing that there’s a psycho between your relatives willing to murder people isn’t exactly the best thing to know. Hence, BEING TOLD that is really risky, because one would be able to simply dismiss it because it’s another person’s words. Maybe, this witch expects that Battler, by finding the truth about it, will come to terms more easily. And, it could explain why he’s so friendly and lovely towards the witch after EP5. After all, the witch didn’t tell the identity of the culprit, is taking the fall for the person and might be even sugar-coating reasons. Battler could delude himself in hiding the truth behind this veil, so that others don’t realize it (especially Ange) and he could simply apply the principle “What you don’t know won’t hurt you” and the fact that he could change the truth because no one else knows it. I don’t know, I probably rambled.

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